Interviewer for a tech company. To weed out 'tech bros' we always put a male and female engineer in the interview session together. If when the female engineer asks the candidate a question he directs his answer to the male engineer, then he doesn't get the job.

@fesshole i hope to god you're a western org because in many cultures like mine, it is considered rude/improper to address women. (not by me but by plenty of cultures, we have a million of them)

@fesshole great idea

@fesshole

My (female) partner and I went car shopping once and she saw a car she was interested in on the lot and we went in to talk to a salesperson.

Dude greeted me enthusiastically and asked me what kind of car I was looking for. I looked him straight in the eye and told him she was the car buyer and he just blew a sale. I then asked to talk to his manager.

Told the manager the same thing -- and then we left.

@fesshole I swear I've seen this one and variations multiple times around on the internets over the last year. Add your own fesses, people!

@fesshole i mean fair enough, however wouldn't a good interviewee look at all the interviewers?

@fesshole Yup. Works at my place as well (at least in my limited experience sitting in on tech interviews over the last 13 years!)

@fesshole

True or false story:
job interview candidate is sitting in waiting room

young female receptionist: r u here for tech support interview ?
could you help me with printer while you wait ?

candidates who plug the printer back in go to next stage of interview

candidates who say we need to install LINUX to run diagnostic tools don't go to the next stage

@fesshole I've been in a few interviews like that.

My favourite had one guy in a suit and tie - normal "business attire" - and another in a leather jacket with studs, chains and patches, bright green Mohican, tattoos and piercings proudly on display.

Sometimes I think back to that interview and wish I'd accepted the offer.

@fesshole A previous place would do interviews with two men, two women, and one of each. If the candidate treated two women worse than the other panels, they didn't get the job. If the candidate saw two men and thought it'd be safe to say misogynistic/homophobic/transphobic shit, they didn't get the job.

@fesshole
Your company needs to be large enough to have a matching female engineer, though.

In my whole career I've only had only one interview with a woman not from HR - she'd been the boss of that company ;-)

(But as a woman I'm usually not suspected of being a tech bro ;-) )

@fesshole I like this approach!

@fesshole oh gosh, I've been doing quite a lot of technical interviews lately, with a male colleague, and we'd never yet even noticed that dynamic. (I think I have a bad habit of asking most of the questions myself). Perhaps it happens less because its specifically a technical interview session (rather than the formal panel) and they're all tech questions.

@fesshole I’m so stealing that idea.

@fesshole

Have to say, Fesshole is supposed to be for things you are ashamed of.

@fesshole I once interviewed someone for a job who would only direct answers to the one dude (out of 5 people) in the room, and that dude was neither the manager of the position OR the highest ranking person in the room

@anandphilipc @fesshole sounds like your culture needs improvement then

@anandphilipc @fesshole Answering a woman's question is quite different from "adressing her" uninvited. Not a cultural question, pure logic.

@anandphilipc Would it be likely in such cultures that a woman would find herself in a position to not only become an engineer but to co-interview male engineering candidates?

@anandphilipc @fesshole If the company has female engineers, then in order to work there you'll have to talk to them. If that's against your culture, don't work there. 🤷

@anandphilipc @fesshole How is somebody who considers it rude to talk to women, supposed to work in a team with women? Software development (and most other jobs) need good and open communication. How is that supposed to work, if a team member refuses to talk to half of the team? What if a women is his line manager, or worse he is theirs? I don't understand what you are trying to defend.

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole
Nah, I've been in that interview. Plenty of decent candidates who aren't afraid of women.

@MylesRyden @fesshole

WTG

Sad to tell that poor schmuk of a 'salesman' that if he read the trade mags he'd know women are over 50% of car buyers rn

#smfh

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole technical capability is only a relatively small part of being a productive employee

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole They're not capable of effectively working if they can't talk to women. OK, that might not be their FAULT if they've grown up in a misogynistic culture rather than developed it themselves so maybe you could hire them then try to train it out of them, but companies don't always want to hire junior folks and take the risk of training them up...

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole An engineer who won't talk to women in a workplace with female engineers? Hardly …

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole
"the most capable candidate" is a myth.

There is no single axis on which you can line up prospective employees from best to worst. There are many candidates in a Pareto frontier of the different skills and attributes and experiences that are relevant.

Rejecting one doesn't mean you are "settling" -- it means you will choose someone else who is also excellent for different reasons.

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole

If "capable" means "can do the job but is a sexist asshole", then good. The fewer of those guys in any organization, the better.

@BritishTechGuru i'll eliminate him entirely, bring him here

@BritishTechGuru @fesshole The most technically capable candidate who is socially incapable of working with half the team would not be a good team member, therefore not a good fit.

@hubertus_munz @fesshole

That's their problem. They should not be an obstacle for women.

@ariadne What do you mean?

@phf that's fair with caveats: https://sigmoid.social/@anandphilipc/112005072838044266 https://sigmoid.social/@anandphilipc/112005067302427655

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole
w
t
f

did you listen to what you just said?
please
read it loud, while watching yourself in a mirror

@anandphilipc cultures which fail to respect the autonomy of women are in need of improvement to evolve past that backwards view. sorry i can’t make it more blunt than that.

@ariadne I don't think evolution works that way. It's about passing on genes, not values. Evolution used in cultural context is very problematic. You are also making the assumption that this comes from a place of not respecting autonomy but that is not always the case. Diff cultures have different values and epistemics. Diversity isn't about everyone acting the same. You cannot deduce belief systems from spot tests of behavior alone. Without cultural sensitivity you risk perpetuating racism.

@anandphilipc @phf what if someone comes from a segregationist culture

@ariadne I do want to make it clear that we should definitely have tests of beliefs about gender etc. and a company has the right to have policies about these things. perfectly ok. and fuck yes people should respond to women when they speak and not talk over them. 200% agree.

@ariadne @anandphilipc Look I’m a sociology student and I don’t know where to begin

@ariadne wow. That thread

@anandphilipc @ariadne no

@anandphilipc @ariadne

Techbro ✅️
Block ✅️

@anandphilipc @ariadne My guy, nobody was talking about evolution but about progress. You're making a fool out of yourself.

Not addressing a woman after she asked something but the man next to her instead is misogyny no matter the perspective, period. If your culture perpetuates such behaviour then it is garbage in this regard and needs to change.

I'm so utterly fed up with people trying to shut down even the most valid criticism because CuLtUrE or ReLiGiOn. They're not garbage-protections.

@anandphilipc yeah i think my original response was a little shitty because it was reactive. sorry for that.

anyway, my point was just that people shouldn’t be allowed to blame culture as a pass for bad behavior. the behavior is still bad, after all, and humans can learn to change their behavior.

i do understand that cultural norms sometimes cause bad behavior to be deeply present in a society, but pushing back and expecting better is valid and should be encouraged, and as a result lifts everyone up. :)

@cykonot @anandphilipc @phf Either they've learned before the interview how to be integrated, or they aren't qualified for the job?

@anandphilipc @ariadne So how do you suggest handling a male potential hire who refuses to communicate directly with women because of cultural norms that exclude women from business and society? It would seem you’d have to at least have a very frank discussion of, “you’re going to have female superiors, co-workers and clients and you are required to treat them the same way you treat male ones.” If he says he can comply he then would need to be monitored to be sure he’s not causing problems.

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole
*sigh* I'm here against my better judgment. So, let's get this out of the way, and my opinions are mine alone. Cultural aspects that condition treating people differently based on gender identity can range from icky to deeply ingrained discrimination. Yes, they should change.

At the same time,...

(1/...)

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole
... forcing your cultural norm upon someone else's culture is also questionable at best. I don't believe the colonizers forcing victorian values (which still lasts BTW) on "backwards" cultures had any less conviction than yours about current cultural norms.

On the scenario: eye contact deficit...

(2/3)

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole
... is also used as a strong diagnosis indicator for autism (research historically excluded autistic researchers and subjects who weren't young, white, boys; but that's beside the point) despite natural human behavior, cultural, social aspects not being uniform.

My point is: things aren't always as clearcut as they appear on surface. Therefore, can we please have a conversation in good faith, before retaliating with "your culture needs changing."

(3/3)

@gaveen @anandphilipc @fesshole i am not a white person, i know all about colonizers.

this is very simple: using “culture” to justify the disrespect of women is not acceptable. anyone who is defending it is effectively defending misogyny.

i really don’t care to hear explanations from men about why the male-dominated cultures they have created and sustained should be given a pass on misogyny.

i’m all for cultural diversity, but not when it is used to justify the subjugation of others.

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole I'm not accusing you (or anyone for that matter) of being one. Sorry if it sounded so.

I'm merely saying, change a culture is a much nuanced undertaking that's best effected by the said culture. Coincidentally "civilization" was the "freedom" of the colonizing days.

Someone was trying to point his culture has different norms. A useful response would have been to take it in good faith and listen. Unfortunately, what you said was, then your culture should change.

@gaveen @anandphilipc @fesshole yes, his culture should change. this takes time and effort, and is best led by the people who live in that culture to educate them on why women should have autonomy.

in the west, women were effectively property until the rise of feminism. it is 2024. it is beyond time to do the work outside the west, too.

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole of course cultures should change. But please notice how it sounds when someone outside of a culture says "your culture needs improvement."

It might even be factually correct, but intent is ambiguous. Also, when someone from a different culture fails your perceived eye contact norms, it doesn't always automatically translate to misogyny.

Social media is where nuance goes to die. What else is new.

@gaveen @anandphilipc @fesshole respectfully, tone policing an indigenous trans woman isn’t helping with the elimination of misogyny in the east.

@ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole definitely not about the tone.

I'm not a woman (nor have experienced an identity outside of binary of male) and therefore, I'm going to shut up because I feel this interaction is driving away from the salient points of the OP.

I'm not even against using the method in the OP as long as it's not a binary test. As a closing, I'd also like to respectfully point that you actually used the phsase "the elimination of misogyny in the east" if that was only reactionary.

@gaveen @ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole I think in the autism case they'd not address the response to the man either.

@lilyf @ariadne @anandphilipc @fesshole I meant it only as an example of how things can be different and nuanced.

As for neurodivergent people who don't make eye contact the typical way, the differences could be many things: frequency, duration, intensity, direction, blinking, alternating, reciprocity, etc. Simultaneously making eye contact, reciprocal conversation, and regulating self can come with unintentional compromises at something. You might observe a difference, but not why there's one.

@Edent @BritishTechGuru @fesshole Yep, I can’t imagine ever being able to judge someone who has trouble working with both men and women as ‘the most capable’.

@BritishTechGuru @qassim @fesshole
I'm unaware of a form of autism that makes someone sexist.

@BritishTechGuru @qassim @fesshole
I'm proud of you for doing that. And if someone asked for a reasonable adjustment in an interview, obviously I'd accommodate them.

But being a sexist isn't a protected characteristic.

@BritishTechGuru @Edent @qassim @fesshole a test like this isn't only screening for misogyny and techbroness. It's also screening for socio cultural norms in eye contact and body language. It'd be a useful indicator, but not a binary test suitable for sorting capability and misogyny.

If we perceive a failing of this test only as clearcut misogyny, we will probably end up with less misogyny, but also with implied racism and ableism in the evaluating criteria. But that's not something new. So, 🤷🏾‍♂️.

@gaveen
If someone can look me in the eye, but not a woman, that's not a disability.
Similarly, having worked with people around the world, I've yet to encounter an entire race who refuse to answer women.

We can try and have a hierarchy of prejudice. Is it OK if they refuse to speak to a disabled interviewer? Or a Muslim one?

But, regardless, at some point it becomes necessary to ensure a prospective employee can communicate with *all* of their colleagues.

@Edent I'm sorry, I had to stop reading after the first sentence. Please note that the use "communication" to actual mean "neurotypical communication" is probably as old as humanity. Therefore, you're not personally responsible. But if your definition of disability is prejudiced, I can't have an effective conversation about that before trying to address it. I just don't have the desire to do so at the moment.

There's a little more context here, if you'd like to check: https://hachyderm.io/@gaveen/112008379783367383

@gaveen
Mate, you're the one who started the conversation with me?
If you live your life expecting everyone to have the same attitude, experience, knowledge, prejudices, and empowerments as you do - you'll be perpetually frustrated.

@Edent I replied to a thread of conversation, not to you specifically. But that's a fair enough point. However, I can't accept your unsolicited advice. Please feel free to collect it.

I was commenting on to how people are echoing here on a perceive behavior without further context as a binary rubric for misogyny, without realizing they are discounting socio cultural and neurological diversity. If pointing that is considered unreasonable, I don't see why I shouldn't just stop talking.

@Edent It’s rather interesting that you tell @gaveen that he shouldn’t live his life expecting everyone to have the same attitudes, experiences etc. as him, but that you expect your interviewees to have the same attitudes as you with regards to how they behave in interacting with people.

So doesn’t that mean that you’ll be perpetually frustrated in your expectations too?

People are complex. Trying to pigeonhole them based on your perceived notions of what is misogyny based on your own culture and experiences will only result in confirmation of your own biases unless you do listen to others’ experiences and viewpoints and take them into account too …

But based on what I have seen through this entire thread, I don’t think people generally are willing to accept that their own perceptions can be fallible … But that is humanity 😛