Don't overthink it. Vision Pro is easily worth $3500 alone just for watching 2D movies and TV and sports on a virtual high-res enormous screen. If Apple can *also* offer 3D live sports and compelling original 3D content and games, they won't be able to make them fast enough to keep up with demand at $3500.

$3500 is a bargain for what Vision Pro offers.

@gruber it’s also a pretty reasonable price when you just say that it’s an M2 Mac that you strap onto your face (I know, VisionOS isn’t MacOS, I’m just looking for a fitting comparison)

@gruber If you have a fat wallet, sure. Especially if your household has multiple people. The price is not such that most folk have the luxury of "not overthinking it." And also not if you have vision issues. Not thinking about that means spending money on something useless.

@gruber For media consumption by yourself, $3500 is certainly a bargain. But what if you want to consume with others? Does Apple have a plan for this? That’s what I’m curious about …

Sure, SharePlay is there. And Apple seems to be beefing up SharePlay with the latest OS releases, but how well will it work? Will it work when there is no Internet? Will it allow some sort of peer-connectivity if there is no network for instance? That’s probably what will tip the scales, at least for some of us 🙂

@gruber A question I am struggling with is whether the real price is $10,500 (3 person family). I'm not sure someone can justify to their family buying one for just for themselves (or for everyone, but using it serially?). Like a computer you can justify, you need it for work. Do the 2D movies on an enormous screen justify 10K so the family can watch it? I legitimately don't know.

@gruber How big of a market is a single user $3500 consumer device? Replacing a Laptop... that changes the math for a broader audience. I don’t think Apple is interested in making cheap products, but how many can afford a #VisionPro AND a #MacBookPro? With all the iOS developers ready to go, the platform could supplant laptops, especially if they can dock to a monitor and be used in “clamshell" mode.

@gruber I just don’t think most people want to watch TV or movies while wearing a helmet and goggles… especially one tethered to a battery pack or charger.

@gruber * per person

@gruber

@gruber That sounds right-ish. No doubt the price is right for the tech involved. I’ll be sad if it only becomes a content consumption device, however.

@gruber I can’t tell if this is satire but my brain can’t decide either because it actually sounds like a good point. Can we emulate larger viewports with a headset?

@gruber I want a desktop Mac with a Retina display. The Studio display is $2000 at my desired spec. I’d probably prefer a high spec Mac mini, which gets me up around $3299. Swapping to a base Mac Studio is $3999.

There are obviously options, like an iMac, but if Vision Pro truly boasts retina-level visuals, it seems a compelling option in the price range. Obviously depends on user needs, though. I don’t suppose it handles usb/usb-c peripherals like audio interfaces at V1.

@gruber agree.

@gruber I can think of many more live events like large concerts and festivals, the papal inauguration, circus and other live shows. Having always the best seat would be appealing, for lets say 20% of the price of the live ticket, and ecologically also interesting. It’s not that nobody would go to the live show anymore if this was available, this for the rest who can‘t participate but would like to.

@gruber I don't find the price forbidding, it is impressive tech - apart from the short battery life. What I do struggle to find, is a use case. Why would I strap this thing to my head for hours at a time? Correction: up to two hours at a time. IMO, real world 3D content is a dud. It is stereographic content, and a far cry from the virtual 3D worlds where real world limitations don't exist. It could be great for immersion in a game, but as a digital stereogram of the real world? Nah.

@gruber

Of course you can do this almost indistinguishably as well for literally one tenth the cost today on an alternative device.

So yes, it would seem that "not overthinking it" is indeed a requirement if you really want people go out and buy Vision Pro for just that.

@gruber I cannot tell if this is supposed to be satire or not

@gruber I'm not an apple fun, but I recognise this is a step forward and at least will be something new the others will compete with to have better and better products over the time

@gruber I think it could improve accessibility on the web by encouraging design for eye tracking regardless of whether the demand for the design is coming from assistive technology or augmented reality.

https://www.boia.org/blog/creating-accessible-content-for-people-who-use-eye-tracking-devices

@gruber I said it on Reddit: Vision Pro costs the same as the base level HoloLens 2. About half of a professional VR headset. Less than a base MacBook Pro with M2 Max. About the same as a maxed out iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard.

@gruber I enjoyed your takes and comments over many years. But this is a position only a rather wealthy and extraordinarily privileged person could take. Maybe you’ve always been like this and I’d never noticed before. I feel increasingly out of touch with Apple’s products and the people focusing on them. So maybe it’s just me changing. But this right now is the moment when things started to feel distinctly off, like a statement out of time. Anyway, just wanted to share that impression.

@gruber But would you use it for that? Do you prefer to watch sports by yourself?

@gruber I thought it was a computer to replace you iPhone and Mac. Not a video screen gimmick

@gruber why are you weirdos so horny to strap a computer to your face

@gruber honestly feel it’ll be out of reach price wise for most households looking for some home entertainment. Maybe if you live in your own or in a small place it’s a good option, but if you have a family a screen a single person can use may be limiting, unless you deliberately want to escape from those you live with for a while.

If the utility is there then the price could work for certain industry or professionals but. Medical, design and other fields, it could be a real boom.

@gruber I, too, like ads shoved directly into my brain. That's where this is headed.

Interfaces like this are useful for some things (piloting a drone, maybe). But I don't think they will ever be useful for anything serious.

@gruber Everyone hated iPhone when it came out and now it is the most popular phone in the US. History repeats itself.

@gruber maybe. But, I always figured part of the point of having an enormous screen is to invite people over to watch movies or sporting events with you.

@gruber My thing is: why would I trade in my PC and TV for a product that tries to do both their jobs but worse? Just doesn't make sense with the $3.5K price tag.

@gruber one of the immediate uses I haven't seen anyone talk about for Vision Pro will be with people with major spinal injuries, or neurological disorders. PT and OT centers are going to be a major market (and there is $$$$ in "adaptive medical equipment") people pay as much or more for assistive communication devices.

Imagine Stephen Hawking with one of these.

@gruber It would be if it was something that other people could use. Personally I don't know how I'm gonna convince my wife we should spend $3500 on an entertainment device only I can use. Do they honestly think putting this arbitrary restriction on the OS is going to convince families to buy multiple?

@gruber but, can I plug my Nintendo Switch to it?

@gruber I think it’s a little overzealous to say that skepticism regarding the Vision Pro’s price tag is “overthinking it.” It’s a lot of high-grade tech packed into an impressively-engineered, tiny package— but it’s also coming in a price that would make it the most expensive thing many households own, *including* cars. Apple will undoubtedly sell a decent number of them to wealthier customers, but this could be a real test of how high a price even their market can bear.

@gruber This is a laughably out-of-touch take. It may be a “bargain” to a very privileged few.

@smt $150K sports cars are for “the privileged few”. Not $3500 computers.

@SeanMarsala You think cars cost $3500?

@jawnythompson Did you trade in your PC and TV for an iPad?

@gruber But for $3500 USD you can get the a giant and awesome LG OLED TV and a PS5. You and _all your friends and family_ can watch 2D movies and TV and play video games.

This thing is super cool, and probably is a bargain for all the tech jammed inside, but sitting on a sofa alone with ski goggles on your head doesn’t seem so great.

@funkaoshi That’s like saying why buy an iPhone when you can get a MacBook Air instead.

@gruber do you have any insight into how/if vision pro is going to handle multiple users? This seems like an essential question given the price tag.

@bdelbanco I don’t know.

@gruber But the Oculus offers all that plus more games at 20% of the cost.

Guess it comes down to how much difference those smaller pixels for each eye makes.

My guess is "not much" for me, coz my eyes are pretty rubbish anyway. Might have a big difference for owls and hawks and humans with 20/20 vision.

@pre The Occulus is like the BalckBerry in 2006.

@gruber yeah but the two hour battery life isn’t enough to finish most movies or games

@marcoshuerta Hence Apple emphasizing that you can use it while plugged in.

@gruber Given a bit use case of Vision Pro is being an enormous screen what are the chances third party hardware (eg. game consoles) will be able to connect to it like the Mac does?

@chung I don’t know what protocol they’d use.

@mikemc303 You, in 2007: why are you weirdos so horny to put a computer in your pocket?

@gruber I just struggle with the value-add on things typically done with other people. Like I’m gonna have a few friends over to watch the game, and what? We’re all gonna throw on headsets? Or I’m gonna get the Super Duper Experience and the peasants can just watch my TV?

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have an issue with the price. When they showed it off it was clear that it was going to be over 3k. Too much cutting edge tech not to be. But I see higher value for single people than married. 🤷‍♂️

@ayounker You’re obviously not intended to use it while socializing. Do you wear AirPods Max for spatial audio when you have friends over?

@The_3M Who said it replaces anything?

@gruber is it not the future of spatial computing and ushering in the post iPhone world? All I’ve heard replacing your phone with it.

@rishio I don’t prefer it per se but I do it, frequently.

@gruber Not a *new* one, of course. It’s on the low end but there are definitely used ones in that price range, especially for private sale as opposed to a dealer.

@gruber You still write/talk from the post WW2 big rebuild/prosperity point of view. You’re part of the last generation to do that.
This is what they currently sing in New York, where the sky changed https://youtu.be/rmHDhAohJlQ

@david1280 America has never been more prosperous. https://jabberwocking.com/raw-data-wealth-around-the-world/

@herrbischoff Inflation adjusted prices:

- 1984 original Macintosh: $7000
- 1991 PowerBook 100: $5600

And that was the low-end PowerBook. Is $3500 cheap? No, of course not. But it’s affordable by historical standards for breakthrough devices.

@gruber I’d like #Apple to come out with a subscription/upgrade program for the  Vision Pro.

For example, customer pays 50% up front and pays the remainder off over the next 12 months and has the option to upgrade immediately to the next generation if they renew their plan. Or customer pay 25% up front and pays remainder off over 18 months with immediate upgrade option activated on renewal. This allows more people to afford adopting #VisionPro and grows the platform rapidly.

@vanitalo Isn’t that called a credit card?

@vanitalo @gruber isn’t this supposedly a plan for their phones? I can imagine that being successful.

@AL3X_M @gruber I think there is an upgrade program for iPhone in some countries and there’s been rumours of hardware subscriptions being considered, but nothing confirmed yet.

@gruber @herrbischoff

@gruber @herrbischoff Computers weren’t that popular back then as they are now as Ferris Bueller pointed out so there was no need for a mass consumption price. And there are more other factors besides inflation like the changing speed of manufacturing at lower costs and the smaller becoming ‘same’ devices costing less material from the weight point of view.

@david1280 @herrbischoff Why is there a "need" for a mass consumption price out of the gate? I don't get it.

@gruber I’m from Europe and whenever i listen to local podcasts of people visiting the big American cities every so many years they all say that the homeless problem has only become bigger. After the banks, the ongoing man made natural disasters and the energy crisis (America not so much), the world is going to face an automation wave while an American presidential candidate who was for universal basic income was completely ridiculed because there’s no money in America for that.

@david1280 Homelessness is a serious problem, but it's driven largely by substance addiction. Currently 0.0018 of the U.S. population:

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-homeless-people-are-in-the-us-what-does-the-data-miss/

@The_3M The phone is the last device Apple makes that Vision might replace.

@gruber @pre Or it’s today’s $500 game console compared to today’s $3500 Mac or PC. They both coexist, and the $500 game console can even play many games that the $3500 Mac can’t.
I say this as someone who’s excited about the AVP and would be happy to see the low end of VR not be controlled by Meta.

@gruber I’m not arguing that. It's not the device first, not the price, it's the attitude. The device as well but that's an entirely different conversation to have at a later time. I haven't experienced VP first-hand yet and can only evaluate it conceptually. However, had you written this in 1984, my reaction would've been similar.

@herrbischoff I don't understand what attitude you're talking about. That it's good for companies to make cutting-edge products that push forward the state of the art?

@gruber The price isn’t the problem. It’s the social context of wearing a headset. Wearing a ski goggle-type headset in any social setting is outright awkward and runs totally counter to human biases towards showing one’s face. I struggle to see use cases outside of being alone (or “alone together” remotely). Maybe that’s a big enough niche.

@gruber Well… Either I entirely misread your intention or it’s telling that you won’t or can’t see my point. A “don’t overthink it” attitude towards a $3500 purchase of what (for the time being at least) amounts to a fancy luxury plaything betrays a rather extensively privileged position, wouldn’t you agree? I wouldn’t call that “affordable” by any stretch of the imagination.

@herrbischoff Lots of playthings cost $3500. It’s also a professional tool, and many more professional tools cost $3500. Your mistake is thinking Vision Pro is superficial.

@gruber It appears my initial impression was correct. You either won’t or can’t see what I mean. That’s fine but also a bit sad.